MACA INTERVIEWS FOR BLACK HISTORY LIVE ORAL REPORT
INTERVIEW DATE: 05/12
INTERVIEWER: Zak Wilkins
RECORDED BY: Victoria Simmonds
Interviewee: David Goddard (77)
00:00:23 I’m from Barbados, which is in the Caribbean
00:00:29 1964
00:00:34 I was just 24 years old.
00:00:44 After leaving school in Barbados I joined the police force. I stayed there about 5 years, got itchy feet. My brothers already lived in England so I thought I’d go over to England after my attempt to go to Canada failed. I came to England to join my younger brother at a hospital in Yorkshire doing psychiatric nursing. I stayed for 5 months before going into formal training. Then I left and a few months later I joined the British Army.
00:01:33 I had some friends from home, relatives who were actually encouraging me to go and join them in Canada.
00:01:50 My first application failed and by that time I’d already resigned from the police force.
00:02:00 I was in the royal engineers. I joined in Yorkshire but I was based mainly here in Brompton.
00:02:20 I think after coming from the scouts and the umm, police force plus I think I ought to get proper training for my future. Like a trade for instance. Being in the west indies, I’m from the west indies, air condition was very common – well at that time it wasn’t very common but it was a good trade to have – I decided to do refrigeration and air conditioning.
00:03:05 there were slight little problems at first because umm, it turned out I couldn’t get the trade I’d wanted to start with because I was told there were no vacancies. Unfortunately when I got into training I found out that there were in fact vacanacies but I quickly worked out that they were recruiting personel to fill their vacancies – it was all for their good not the good of the applicant. So after resisting for a while – it took me about three years before I did get my training in refrigeration and air conditioning. Prior to that I just worked field engineering.
00:04:08 Yeah, had a few tours in Germany, I spent some time in Northern Ireland, few months in Northern Ireland. United Arab Emirates which was mainly Shajra and Dubai at that time. Then Dubai was really nothing much, not like today. Hong Kong, and while we were in Hong Kong we got the chance – the family – to visit Thailand. And then back to England and then back to Germany and then back to England. (Laughs)
00:04:49 I had a very good time. Especially I was also accompanied by my family to Hong Kong, that was when we got the visit to Thailand.
00:05:17 I would recommend something like the army, army or armed forces, I would recommend to young people. Especially today with such unemployment, lack of decent training. I would easily recommend it to any of my children – my children have been in the guides and the scouts and they’ve had a good time. I enjoyed it in the army. It’s very good training for future, no matter what they decide to do later and today I think it’s a very worthwhile career. It’s an easy way of getting proper satisfaction in something you do and at the same time you’re supporting your country.
00:06:05 I first came to Medway in 1968, that was my first training course in refrigeration and air condition. Went away and ended up in United Emirates some time later and I came back in 1970 for an upgraded course, 1972 for another upgraded course, 1975 as an instructor, went away and did other courses and other postings and them in 1975 I came as another instructor again and – on promotion.
00:06:50 Yeah, it’s always a matter of in and out. Mainly back to the UK for courses, further training, college and such like. And maybe back to another – whichever it is. Another part of the world.
00:07:09 Well, you know, Barbados was actually called Little Britain and where Kent is supposed to be the garden of England, Barbados was called the garden of the west indies so .. we’d been occupied mainly by the British. Founded by the Portuguese, occupied by British so just about everything is British: drive on the left, most of the names we have, Hastings and Windsor and different things like that back in Barbados. So you know, it’s no different to here. English is the same, same English. The only thing we learn - the only thing we learnt is all English history anyway. When I came from Barbados, most people hadn’t even heard of Barbados and I think most Barbadian immigrants they knew more about English history than most English.
00:08:18 It was cold. And … it was March, so it was still more or less winter. And just as it was amazing seeing the tops of so many houses and the smoke coming out and the coldness and the dampness, quite a vast difference. Because even December in Barbados we have maybe a temperature of 20-21 degrees, 60-70 degrees F.
00:09:00 It was quite a thing, and the next thing is getting on the bus. I’d never seen a double decker bus before so then I liked to sit on the top deck so look outside and see the scenery; unfortunately, that was the place where you got the smoke because smoking was allowed only upstairs. And maybe if I ever get cancer – lung cancer – it will be from riding those top decks of busses
00:09:43 The navy was still here first visit in 1970, the navy was still here and ummm .. there really very very many bars. There was a pawn broker outside of Brompton barracks and there was lots of drinking, I think maybe a lot of fighting. It was completely different, in number of facilities. There were quite a number of good shops in Gillingham high street, but now it’s all empty. The pentagon centre wasn’t there until later – much time later – at which time many pubs had disappeared. Then the navy went and things more or less went downhill. But before that there were good times. Lots of people and I think people to some extent were friendlier then I don’t know.
00:11:21 Where I’ve been I’ve always felt like I was welcome. To some extent I believe it’s down to the individual – how you yourself view people. How you get on with people, whether or not you respect them. And I found that a lot of people in foreign countries I’ve been, they’ve had more-or-less great respect for me, great respect also for the British. I found that even in Germany I’ve had occasions to speak to ex-German soldiers, war soldiers, who respected England. Some of them went out of their way actually to help us. Umm, In Hong Kong I had a section, a lot of Chinese labourers and I was attached to the green Gurkha’s and I got on very well with everyone. And they all respected us, we were always well treated. That was one of the happiest times of our lives, including myself, my wife and my children.
00:12:55 My wife is German. My children were born in Germany, my son and my daughter were born in Germany but they come with us to Hong Kong. Yeah, so we had a good time.
00:13:13 18 and a half years. Nearly 19 years Then I thought I was getting a bit old so it was time to get out, leave the army and look for something else. Because outside of the military, no one wants to employ an old man. So I decided to leave and with my training I was able to get work in bigger companies in construction, maintenance companies and later on ended up my last 8 years I ended up in Lewisham college teaching.
MACA INTERVIEWS FOR BLACK HISTORY LIVE ORAL REPORT
INTERVIEW DATE: 05/12
INTERVIEWER: Zak Wilkins
RECORDED BY: Victoria Simmonds
Interviewee: Cleta Cargill (67)
00:00:33 Jamaica … Portland
00:00:42 19.. No, I came over here in 62. I was just 14. Very young, yeah
00:00:59 Yes, I can remember I was going to Belkacem(?) school in Portland. A place name Belmant(?) and I can remember leave from there and go to Abbey grove – that was the high school. I had to pass a scholarship to go there. And when I leave there I go to a place in umm, Saint Annes(?. But my mom and dad came here before me and then they sent for me and all my sisters. And they were pretty young as well. One of them, Herra(?) was 9, Marlene was 7, Sherry was 8 and Millie was about 6. Yeah, so we all came here very young.
00:01:53 Yeah, it was. When I first came here I thought these houses were factories. Because of the smoke. Yeah I thought these house were factories and the yard there very small, back home we have very big yard and the house is very big with veranda all around. Yeah, it was very scary for me.
00:02:17 My first impression was to say that it wasn’t like Jamaica (laughs) Not like Jamaica. Because when I see the snow I was asking my mom ‘What’s that, coming from the air?’ and she said snow, I said really, snow falls here? She said yes! (Laughs)
00:02:36 And in those days the snow was very very thick. Some times we had to use a light to go home or we had to dig away the snow from our door. And your ears feel like they’re dropping off and your hands cramp. In those days you have to wear so much clothes. Now it’s better, not so cold, not as them times because a lot of people is immigrating over here. That’s bad like when I was in ’62, it was very, very bad so … And everything was different, bus fare was only 2p (laughs) you don’t believe that. And paraffin was 6 pence. Because you know what we had to do? We had to go to the petrol station to buy paraffin to light the paraffin light and that’s what keeps us warm. And fish and chips use to wrap in newspaper. And the fish and chips were 2p as well. And then you had to cut the newspaper, string them up and tack them to the wall to use them .. when you do a number two to cleanse yourself, newspaper! Yeah, it was different but them days was good because we didn’t have much violence like now. You could leave your door open and go to shops and come back, nobody would come in. And everybody was friendlier! If you had babies they use to take it from you or the younger generation used to get up but they sit in the seat now. They don’t have no respect for older people now.
00:04:19 Everything is changed. Prices have gone very sky high, I remember my mom pay .. I think, 50 .. £5 000 for a house in those days. You could buy a house very very cheap. Because my mom did have a house in Battersea. But then the council asked her that they was going to develop that area so they knock it down, they reimburse my mom and then she buy one in backmaster road. I spend most of my life in London.
00:04:57 Yeah, the houses were bigger in those days. My mother she had a 5 person house in Kingswood then when she move to Backmaster road she had a 6 bedroom house. Those house in Battersea, you can’t buy them now. Very very expensive. Even the one I live in Roehampton it’s gone up now to 600 000 and I sell it only for 176 000. Come down here and buy this one cash for 98 950. Yes so .. Can’t buy house in Battersea now.
00:05:34 And what was nice the market in Battersea was so good. Everything was so cheap. We use to take our basin, you know those basin pan? Go to the butchers and buy sixpence meat you get it full up. And six pence hot water and shilling hot water. Um 50p gas. so yeah .. things change. I did prefer them days anyway. Yeah, those days were good. Kids used to have manners, if they don’t they get the cane. Yeah, they use to cane us here. If you’re late or you don’t proper dress they use to cane us and send us home to get proper dressed. Your hair you had to have in bows, plait in it. Our uniform had to be very pressed, shoes and socks. These kids now they go to school any hour, (laughs) because they’re not getting caning. But I think .. I can’t remember when they abolish the caning .. and I think that’s why they’re so so rude now. Yeah .. Yeah .. Different generation now. Older generation used to have respect for older people and these kids they don’t know.
00:07:09 I bought up my kids between them and they all come out very good and had respect, yeah. Because they had to. Because if not my mom would cane them, really she would.
00:07:32 Yeah, my time growing up in London was very good. Because I go to school in Lavender Hill then I had an exam, like a GCSE so I leave and go to William Blake which is a higher college and then when I leave there I go to Mag Lane from when I was 17. Because I love fashion and I love to dress. When the principal ask me Cleta what do you like? I say I love fashion and she put in the room to find out how intelligent I was, I pick up a magazine and cross my leg and was reading it. And at the time I didn’t know the camera was watching me. And then when I go she show it to me and say ‘you are so intelligent, go there, Join up the skirt.’ You know she said okay we take you on – in those days it was £200 to train. But my mom she paid for me but then when I was used to go away my mom used to worry she said, you’re probably gonna get killed I said no mama, im safe, I’m in safe hands. Because I just go from country to country doing my modelling. I wasn’t black beauty but the book that mark black beauty, one of my friends still has that book. (Laughs)And my photofile, when I move st marks house and my tings packs my son throw away the box. But I have picture, up on the wall. Beautiful pictures. I must bring some over.
00:09:22 Mm, so my schooling year was very good. Although we used to get caning if we were naughty but it was good in them days. The exam was harder though. Maths was very hard. English was very hard and science. And you had to pass these things. And in those days the teacher used to walk around, it was scary. And we were shaking and she used to walk around and look at the work, what you were doing.
00:09:58 That’s why I’m hard on my kids, they’re really brainy. The big one is a manager for the site, they run all the Asdas in Kent. She’s a manager, runs all the Asda. My last one, she was a nursery nurse and then she’s a carer. She’s self educated. My second son is a chef, James is a manager for the console room and John is still studying. He wants to be a lawyer, he’s still in college. So my kids are pretty good. You never saw them on the street. Somebody come up to me and say your kids are very brought up proper, I say between me and my mom. No smoking or drinking or making trouble. They don’t.
00:10:51 So my schooling year was, I was very happy in those days. Very good schooling. Although the principal was very strict. They were very strict, not like now. They see to it that you learn your lesson. And what was nice was you have to take your homework home, bring them back and they see that they mark them. If you bring anything that is right, they will mark them, tick them off. You do well in English, or science or mathematics. Yes them days was very good.
00:11:34 I was seventeen, and I was tiny I was only size 8. I was very slim, very petite. Yes size 8 clothes I used to wear. And I walk around in six inch shoes. My friend ask me Cleta how you walk in them shoes? But I was trained. I trained to do make up, I trained to do my hair. Cuz we have a make up teacher, we have a hair teacher. I was trained to do commercial! Because I remember one of my commercial, new pink me, the soap of the star. Because when you use it you feel like a star. Leave your skin so smooth and soft to touch so why don’t you use it and feel like a star. Yeah, it’s sweet. I do the girl, I do the chocolate.
00:12:46 – 00:12:58 interrupted by background noise
00:12:59 I could tell you what I wear that day, a green top with a green button – someone said Cleta who made your top I said I do it, she said really? You’re very clever. Right now I’m making a nice blouse, and I crochet. Yes, but the only thing is it’s tiring. Whenever they call you’re ready. You have to have your suitcase packed days before and wherever they say you have to go you have to go to do your photoshoot. And you have to go because you’re working.
00:13:44 – 00:14:15 interrupted by background noise
00:14:16 I don’t like these days. Too much violence. Every day you hear somebody get killed. Like me now the police are involved with me, I’m stalked. By this Nigerian man coming to knock my door down. Coming to stand in the gateway. I’ve got one down the phone because the police said is it the same person that’s stalking you. I said no one’s on the phone and I had to change numbers. And they’re gonna set up cameras, for the one that’s menacing me. These days are very – umm, people are very violent. Sometime you’re afraid to go out at night. Get very scared.
00:15:21 Yeah, go to America, go to Germany, go to Spain, go to Paris, go to Malta, go to Belgium, go to Ibiza, I work all over. My passport just stamp with different places. It’s nice. I like Paris. I like the nightlife. I went to the Eiffel tower. When you’re up there the people look like birds, very small. I like Germany too, I didn’t like Belgium much. People there are rude, they push you and don’t say sorry. Nothing like that but Germany nice. We always in hotel. Stayed in phillipa tree hotel in Costa Brava, I went to Barcelona. Costa Brava is like the country side. Really nice. My son said to me one day, mommy you think you are young again too pack your bag and go away and when the police is coming they say who is that up there he say my mommy, she don’t change she don’t look different. People can’t believe my age now. Because I keep myself occupied, do my painting indoors, go shopping. I paint my gate, everybody when they pass they look in – white house, and grey and black and gold and silver. For you see I’m very creative.
00:17:35 Yeah, yeah it was but my mom she always fret for me. Think I wont come back home. But I was in safe hands back then nobody would kill you or anything like that. Because where we go is a lot of girls and a lot of boys but we don’t share room with the males. Females have their own room. But in those days osme of the girls were aggressive as well. If they think you’re better than them and dress better or come before them they didn’t like it. I remember them say go Cleta go, because I could step faster than them and I was petite. And I was prettier than some of them so when I put my make up on and my hair they don’t like it. I used to cut my hair short and sometime I go out I wear a wig and I would tie up my hair in different style. Sometime I wear a hoodie.
00:19:12 But really I’m like a face, I do a photographic. I do that till I was 39. But then I stop when my principal said you have to lose weight so I decide not! But I used to do it indoors before I have the twins.
00:19:47 I went into nursing. A state registered nurse.
00:19:58 Yeah, oh dear in those days you had to have your uniform well pressed, wear white cuffs, black skirt, black shoes. And you can’t go out in your uniform, you have to leave in the hospital. And sister, oh my god! Everything had to be boiled and scald if you were working in the theatre.They had some big pads in them days and they would put everything in the big pad for the theatre and boil them. We didn’t have everything like now that they just use. Everything, the scalpels, everything had to be boiled and well sterilised. Nowadays they have so much things they have to sterilise.
00:21:01 – 00:21:31 interrupted by background noise.
00:21:31 Because I love old people. I love old people! After I leave the nursing I went to private like sister used to call me and send me out at night to different homes. One of the homes I worked was in Greenland, a big home there. And you had to bathe people and feed them and look after them very good. You can’t rough them. You have to have a patience. I remember one man do number two, we give him an enema. He do on the floor, he mess the bed and mess himself so I have to change him, washed him, made the bed. Put everything in the laundry bag. Is hard work nursing, too. You have to be on the goal.
00:22:33 Um, in Highgate. There’s a place near Highgate I was living in. My mom pay for me to stay in the home and train. I used to come home on weekends and come back on the Monday. And when I start to work I work in London in Queens Mary. Leela, I think she was a carer as well. Pam was a midwife.
00:23:14 I came here in the … 80’s. 82 or 80 something. Was February, it was cold. I’m here about 20 odd years now. It’s nice here, not as busy as London. Everything is slow. London is too busy and compact. My son is complaining to me every night, mommy I’m stuck in traffic. I can’t reach home I said I used to drive to – well since I have the doctors that stop me from driving. My knees now tend to buckle and the cartilage is going.
00:24:11 Yeah it was much better. People were more kind, more polite, now nobody care. Specially when you’re getting old. Nobody care. And the hospital was very different. More clean. I think it’s the time we’re living in now. People just rush about, don’t care. Don’t care for old people.
00:24:58 Yeah you meet different kind of people and different food. The experience of eating different kinda thing. I didn’t like the Spanish food much, the greek food I like it. And Germany food is nice, they do a lot of sausage. Most things is sausage. The Spanish is like spaghetti and the Italian and soup and paella. You have to eat a lot of paella. But we had a big dining room for all the models and when they bring the food you have to help yourself. And you have to wash your own plate cuz when they come in with the food they tell us if we don’t mind to wash our plate and leave for them to pick up.
00:26:45 yeah I think when I came here I had to look about my sisters, because I’m the oldest by 7. I had to help my mom to get them dress, go to school, do the washing. And in those days you didn’t have washing machine so you have to wash by hand, get down on your knees to wash the floor. Now everything come in, washing machine, dishwasher – we used to use the broom to clean the floor. And in those days no carpet, just floorboard and things.
00:27:31 I have it hard to bring up my sisters to help my mom. Because then everybody have to work. And we would work for four shillings, and that four shillings would take you back to work, buy your supper you have to do everything partly. Rent was about 5 shillings. Sometimes I say I wish we could go back to those days it would be nice.
00:28:05 But my mom she used to work at the military bank hospital. She used to be a nurse there, my dad used to be a chef there, where all the soldiers go. I even used to work in the ministry of defence. Filing. It’s in my passport, those days you write on your passport what you do. And you can’t take the secret out or nothing.
00:28:57 I work all over London. Now I’m at home, you know, feel like I’m laid back. Not going out at work. So I’m fine to go to the kenka clubs on the Monday come to this one on the Tuesday, back to that one on the Wednesday for coffee morning and relaxation. Keep myself occupied. Like tonight is my barber class, I study a lot. I have to study to answer the questions. Keep myself occupied, yeah, probably that’s why I look so young. Do a lot of cooking indoors and thing like that.
